Truth In The Old Testament Prophets

Message: 71018
From: Ernest Moyer
Subject: A Question for the Group
Date: Wed, May 25, 2005, 6:31 AM
Topic: General
Reply to Message 70990
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To Steffani and Nancy:

You asked:

Exactly how is the future forecast - written in stone - to the extent that you believe Machiventa was giving actual predictions complete with absolute outcomes to the prophets?

I can see how a forecast can be supposed by criteria based in that time - but, at the same time, situations change.

Such forecasts can SERVE as a warning for future generations to some degree - but future generations can CHANGE the tide - can actually turn things around.

Only the Omniscient Father to whom all time is simultaneously present can know the choices and decisions which will be made by those creatures to whom He has given will freedom.

I hesitate to engage in analytical treatment of these subjects because of their sheer conceptual complexity. If you believe the last statement, then you must consider how Paradise operates. Remember, p 2, on Paradise time and space are nonexistent. Thus all things that are of Paradise origin carry attributes befitting to Paradise. Our Creator Son is of Paradise origin. The Father is divinely present in all of his Paradise Sons, p 28. The Father and the Sons are one. Hence the time attributes of Michael are also like that of the Father. A Creator Son is not handicapped by time, but he is conditioned by space, p 377. He knows all time, just as the Father knows all time. Hence he can forecast time to his time-space domains.

This also means that everything in creation is absolutely fixed. Like the Father, the Son knows all; he is never surprised by any universe event; he comprehends the end from the beginning, p 76. This also means that we do not have absolutely free will. There is no such thing in creation. But we have free will within the range of our existence, in our choice domain. Please read my paper at:

When the knowledge attribute of Michael is transmitted to Melchizedek he, Melchizedek, can forecast time with absolute certainty. There are no ifs, ands, or buts.

You said:

However, Christ Michael may implement and superimpose his own plans at any time...

You go on to quote:

P.241 - 3 After his elevation to settled sovereignty in a local universe a Paradise Michael is in full control of all other Sons of God functioning in his domain, and he may freely rule in accordance with his concept of the needs of his realms. A Master Son may at will vary the order of the spiritual adjudication and evolutionary adjustment of the inhabited planets. And such Sons do make and carry out the plans of their own choosing in all matters of special planetary needs, in particular regarding the worlds of their creature sojourn and still more concerning the realm of terminal bestowal, the planet of incarnation in the likeness of mortal flesh.

You are now entering the domain of conceptual complexity. There is absolutely nothing that is not known to Michael beforehand. Since he is not time constrained he must know all time, and all choices within time.

If you were to take space creation and then take slices of time, an infinite number of times, you would see the way Michael sees.

This raises the possibility that time, as a fixed existence, can be used to "crawl around the universe." Could we "skip" from one time to another time? This is what we know in our science fiction as time travel. There are many reports about our space visitors which suggest that they can use time to travel or "short-circuit" time. They can telescope time, and offer a time presentation in an "instant." See the report of David Morningstar at:

You said:

Even the Old Testament prophecies contained an if/then clause so that disasters might be averted. Of course, if "the Word of the LORD" did not come to pass because the people heeded the dire warning, they could kill the prophet for that reason...and often did.

Would you please quote the Old Testament where such statement is made. I know that Yahweh gave them conditional statements, not in the sense of uncertainty, but as warnings of their behavior -- which he knew beforehand. So the what-if statements do not undermine the forecast certainty; they serve as a warning of creature future choice.

By the way, if you are uncertain of the identity of Yahweh in the Old Testament, he is Michael in his role as planetary caretaker.

See my paper at:

You said:

Now it is most likely that Machiventa generally knows the future of a planet for which he laid the plans for spiritual rehabilitation...and the planetary epochs which are developmentally dispensationally delayed on Urantia.

P.853 - 0 ... From the distant days of the arrival of the corporeal staff of the Planetary Prince, down through the times of Van and Amadon to the arrival of Adam and Eve, physical representatives of the universe government had been stationed on the planet. But with the Adamic default this regime, extending over a period of more than four hundred and fifty thousand years, came to an end. In the spiritual spheres, angelic helpers continued to struggle in conjunction with the Thought Adjusters, both working heroically for the salvage of the individual; but no comprehensive plan for far- reaching world welfare was promulgated to the mortals of earth until the arrival of Machiventa Melchizedek, in the times of Abraham, who, with the power, patience, and authority of a Son of God, did lay the foundations for the further uplift and spiritual rehabilitation of unfortunate Urantia.

I do not know if you have considered it, but think about what it means to have the power, patience, and authority of a Son of God.

You continued:

It seems to me Nancy that Earnest is reading a lot into what the UB says about the sort of things Melchizedek imparted to the seers of old...

Nor is there any real reason to believe that the old Testament prophets of record were necessarily the ones with whom Machiventa communicated.

If the Old Testament prophets were not the ones to whom Melchizedek communicated, then where are they? Don't you recognize the foolishness of that remark? Here we have all these Old Testament prophecies, who now become meaningless, and then we have unknown prophets where Melchizedek left all the good stuff.

It is an unreal scenario.

P.1024 - 6 This same Melchizedek continued to collaborate throughout the nineteen succeeding centuries with the many prophets and seers, thus endeavoring to keep alive the truths of Salem until the fullness of the time for Michael's appearance on earth.

The text only says it was "the truths of Salem"...and his spiritual teachings which our Planetary Prince sought to share and preserve.

What are the "truths of Salem." Are they not his teachings? Do we have a record of some of those teachings? Sure we do. Go into the Bible and sort out the promises made to Abraham. You may be surprised.

P.1043 - 5 It was the Salem missionaries of the period following the rejection of their teaching who wrote many of the Old Testament Psalms, inscribing them on stone, where later-day Hebrew priests found them during the captivity and subsequently incorporated them among the collection of hymns ascribed to Jewish authorship. These beautiful psalms from Babylon were not written in the temples of Bel- Marduk; they were the work of the descendants of the earlier Salem missionaries, and they are a striking contrast to the magical conglomerations of the Babylonian priests. The Book of Job is a fairly good reflection of the teachings of the Salem school at Kish and throughout Mesopotamia.

There you go. Look at all those wonderful Old Testament Psalms, the knowledge of which you are missing, if you reject them. They are called "beautiful." I think they are beautiful also. I thing they are wonderful. Don't you understand the word "striking contrast" when comparing with the "magical conglomerations" which these many wonderful Urantians think that is all there is left in the Bible.

P.1033 - 4 About six hundred years before the arrival of Michael, it seemed to Melchizedek, long since departed from the flesh, that the purity of his teaching on earth was being unduly jeopardized by general absorption into the older Urantia beliefs. It appeared for a time that his mission as a forerunner of Michael might be in danger of failing. And in the sixth century before Christ, through an unusual co-ordination of spiritual agencies, not all of which are understood even by the planetary supervisors, Urantia witnessed a most unusual presentation of manifold religious truth. Through the agency of several human teachers the Salem gospel was restated and revitalized, and as it was then presented, much has persisted to the times of this writing.

Now there we go again. 600 hundred year before Jesus. Why that is most of the Old Testament prophets. It was at that time that there was a most unusual presentation of manifold religious truth. And these know-it-all Urantians would reject those teachings!

Only to their eternal loss.